Maybe you've had an experience like this:
You and a group of friends are ready to go out, and you're trying to decide where to eat. It can be a difficult thing to decide - some people don't eat certain foods or don't like certain types of restaurants, others feel like eating something specific, and some have a list of a few places that they're in favor of.
As that process begins to work itself out, there's almost always at least one person who refuses to take part in the decision-making process. They'll usually say something like, "I don't care where we go, I'm just happy to be with you guys." or "Whatever you decide is fine."
That frustrates me to no end. Why not participate? What's the problem? You're here - you're part of the group - do your part and help us make this decision! You're going to eat when we get where we're going, why not share your thoughts and ideas about where to go? Who knows? Your idea might trigger something in someone else - you might have a suggestion that no one else thinks of that would make our outing amazing! Or your suggestion might be lame and we'll move on to something else. But that's not the point.
I don't see the virtue of sitting this one out. It seems a little like a cop out. Don't get me wrong - it doesn't make you a bad person (or a bad Christian) or anything like that, but why not participate in the process? No one's guaranteeing that we're going to do what you suggest, but what harm is there in helping the group decide?
The way I see it is that your input could impact the group for the better - what you say could be exactly what it takes for our night to be wonderful, and that would be good. If you don't give your two cents, we'll probably all be OK and have a good time, but we'll miss out on what might have been a good idea from you.
What benefit is there from you sitting out? Is there a benefit here? I don't see it.
That scenario mirrors my thoughts on the upcoming election tomorrow. The most high-profile thing on the ballot tomorrow is obviously the Presidential election, but there are a lot of other offices up for grabs and issues all over that we, the citizens of this country (and our local communities) have the opportunity to have a voice in.
Why not take advantage of that opportunity and participate in decision making process? How does sitting this one out benefit the community at large?
Is your vote going to be the one that makes the difference one way or the other? Maybe, but probably not. We all know the schtick about the value of a vote, etc. I'm not going there.
The bottom line for me is this: I can't see the value you add to the community / city / country by abstaining from the vote.
Is it wrong to not vote? Probably not. Is it a sin? No. Does it make you a bad person? Negative. A bad Christian? I don't think so. Does it harm the community / city / country? I doubt it.
But...does not voting make you a better person? No. A better Christian? No. Does it make you a better citizen? Uh-uh. Is there any benefit to the community / city / country? No.
As a disciple of Jesus in the community / city / country I live in, I'm called to love and serve others in His name and do what he would do if He were in my place.
For me, I think that means participating in the community / city / country and prayerfully taking the opportunity the God-given government gives me to voice my viewpoints and cast my vote. Is that the end of my responsibilities? No way! But I think it's part of it.
So I encourage you to make your way to the polls tomorrow - pray for guidance and cast your vote in accordance with what you believe is right.
My two cents...until next time - RevPhil
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19 comments:
Right on.........
(OK -- I'm old -- do they still say that? Anyway -- it means I am in agreement with you........)
Amen Brother! (see below webpage)
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christians-vote.html
Question: "Does God expect Christians to vote?"
Answer: Beyond any shadow of a doubt, it is the duty and responsibility of every Christian to vote and to vote for leaders who promote Christian principles. God is most certainly in control, but that does not mean we should do nothing to further His will. We are commanded to pray for our leaders in 1 Timothy 2:1-4. In terms of politics and leadership, there is evidence in Scripture that God has been displeased with our choices of leadership at times (Hosea 8:4). The evidence of sin’s grip on this world is everywhere. So much of the suffering on earth is because of godless leadership (Proverbs 28:12). Scripture gives Christians instructions to obey legitimate authority unless it contradicts the Lord’s commands (Acts 5:27-29, Romans 13:1-7). As born again believers, we ought to strive to choose leaders who will be themselves led by our Creator (1 Samuel 12:13-25). Candidates or proposals that violate the Bible’s commands for life, family, marriage, or faith should never be supported (Proverbs 14:34). Christians should vote as led through prayer and study of both God’s Word and the realities of the choices on the ballot.
Christians in many countries in this world are oppressed and persecuted. They suffer under governments they are powerless to change, governments that hate their faith and silence their voices. These believers preach the gospel of Jesus Christ at risk of their own death. Many are killed so that others may benefit from the love of God. U.S. Christians have been blessed with the right to speak about and choose their leaders without fearing for themselves or their families. In the United States, in the 2000 presidential election, about 2 of every 5 of self-professed Christians took that right for granted. But about 1 in 5 self-professed, eligible Christians are not even registered to vote.
In our day and age, there are many who want to drive the name and message of Christ completely out of the public eye. Voting is an opportunity to promote, protect, and preserve godly government. Passing up that opportunity means letting those who would denigrate the name of Christ have their way in our lives. The leaders we elect—or do nothing to remove—have great influence on our freedoms. They can choose to protect our right to worship and spread the Gospel, or they can restrict those rights. They can lead our nation towards righteousness or towards moral disaster. Christians in the United States, and Christians in other democratic nations, must stand up and follow our command to fulfill our civic duties (Matthew 22:21).
Recommended Resource: Beyond Left and Right: Helping Christians Make Sense of American Politics by Amy Black.
regarding the decision about where to eat, i'm the one who usually doesn't care. i may offer places i do NOT want to go, but otherwise, it really just doesn't matter to me. why? because dinner is not the big deal; being with the folks i'm with is. so i don't care where we go because i'm with them wherever 'there' is. and i'm not a picky eater. :)
regarding voting, i see it as a right of being a US citizan that we can vote. but i'm not sure it's our christian duty. our duty is to pray for our leaders, etc., whoever they may be. Jesus lived under the strictest form of government and yet he didn't try to overthrow it, no matter how badly others wanted him to. he didn't really even comment on the political situation around him except to pay taxes. thanks for that one, Jesus! LOL!
so i think that the choice to vote or not vote is just that: a choice by every one of us. some people probably shouldn't vote because they have not really thought about the issues. they haven't looked at what the politicians themselves say. they just vote the way someone else says they should vote.
what do you think of those kinds of voters? wouldn't you rather they sit the election out than just go along with another's point of view? and christians on both sides of this presidential election will tell you that obama or mccain is the best 'christian' choice. so then what will that person do? choose the one who's name they like the best? (yes, i've heard that one!) sigh.
i don't think this issue is easy. like so much of life, it's got some pretty gray areas...
About where to eat: voting against certain options is participation in my book - way to go!
And I agree with you that our Christian duty is to pray for our leaders and pay our taxes.
The thing that bothers me is this: Jesus influenced society by his words and lifestyle, and we're called to follow in His footsteps and be "influencers" too (Matthew 5:13-16 uses salt and light as examples).
If we're going to influence society for the better and be fruitful members of the Kingdom of God, wouldn't being an INFORMED voter be part of that? Wouldn't we benefit our community / city / country by doing that? God has blessed us by allowing us to live in a country that has a procedure where the citizens can participate and influence the government by voting.
I don't see how not taking advantage of that right offers benefit to society.
And I'm in agreement with you on this point - taking advantage of our right to vote in a responsible way does require us to be informed about the issues / candidates we have to decide about.
So, rather than encourage someone to sit the election out, I would encourage them to get educated (this is not difficult), pray (also not hard), and vote according to their conscience and understanding of God.
My issue in this case is not about HOW a person votes (which candidate / issue), but rather that they DO vote.
i would also encourage folks go beyond the voting booth (is that an anacronym or what!?). get busy in our community. volunteer to help out with the all the folks that are making an impact -- day to day. we can't rely on government to change the world. WE have to be the change the want the world to have. it starts with us. for some, that includes voting; for others it may mean being involved locally.
either way though, voting is not enough. and complaining is not helpful.
so whatever happens today, we need to continue to represent Jesus in our worlds. to love as he loved. to go where he would go (and we don't do that very often).
and to not let politics govern us.
We agree again! I hope I haven't implied that voting is our only responsibility - it isn't. We definitely have to get our hands dirty, and the government shouldn't be what we rely on.
I just can't get my brain around how our community / city / country benefits by its citizens (shouldn't followers of Jesus be the best of these) refusing to exercise our right and casting our informed vote. It doesn't add up.
To not vote shows Apathy towards the democracy. Read on to see what that leads to ...
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the
Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.
'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.
'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage'
Submitted by LtCol R. Miller, USAF ret.
A very thought-provoking and challenging read, Phil. It continues to probe my own perspectives. I may be wrong in choosing the path I have...it will depend on what kind of person I am becoming.
Here is a quotation that says well what I currently believe:
"But it wasn't as if Jesus...wanted Rome's power or wanted to gain a foothold in the culture wars of his time....Jesus was urging his followers to be the unique, peculiar, and set-apart people that began with Abraham. He didn't pray for the world in order to make governments more religious; he called Israel to be the light of the world- to abandon the way of the world and cultivate an alternative society in the shell of the old, not merely be a better vision of the kingdom of this world." (Shane Claiborne, Jesus for President, p. 71)
In no way would I promote or encourage others not to vote simply because that's my choice at this time. Voting is an American right, of course, and those who are interested in political issues and solutions are welcome to exercise their right to use the avenue of politics in hopes to bring about "Christian" laws and policies. To the man who came to Jesus expressing his desire to be his follower but first wanted to do the noble and right thing of burying his father, Jesus replied, "Let the dead bury their own dead." For those who wish to exercise their noble and good-intentioned concern to be an influence for God and Christian virutes in our society, I say "Let the politically-minded use the political system." Jesus wasn't saying that caring for parents in God-honoring ways was bad; he was simply saying that following him requires a perspective from which the society in which burials occur would be more powerfully affected by those who pledged their allegiance to Jesus and lived his lifestyle in every context. I would hope that any benefit I bring to any society is the love I can actively demonstrate. Our unique identity as Jesus' followers is expected to institute societal change in ways that no president, legislation or geographical boundary will ever be able to accomplish. Any change I wish to see regarding leadership or issues is my responsibility to bring to pass as the light in darkness and salt on earth.
We are not to worship democracy as if it was God's great idea. Frankly, we are hard-pressed to find it mentioned or used in the Bible. We are under the absolute leadership of Jesus and I am willing to accept the preferences of others with gratitude as I will continue to be able to live as Jesus' disciple in this great country. Should that change and we lose that freedom (as is the case in many other countries), I will still live as a disciple of Jesus and take whatever consequences for that lifestyle.
At this time, I simply care about my identity as a Christian in the context of a culture that has blended its faith with its patriotism. Neither presidential candidate appears to be carrying the banner of Christianity to the level that would make the kind of difference God intends in this world. If so, policies, dollars and time would be sacrificed and spent to alleviate poverty rather than inconvenience and cultivate peace rather than encourage war.
This (and other posts) are a great thing for our time in that they help us define and refine who we are becoming in Christ.
Readers are welcome to add their dialogical input to my posts (duffingdaddy. blogspot.com).
Hey everybody! I have got to say that I have been consumed in thought and anticipating the next post about this issue for the past 24 hours and am ready to finally add my thoughts to this chain. While I sat in front of the computer actually reading a blog or a response or found myself in thought over what I read, or having spent time trying to put in words a justified version of my own opinion. I have come to the following conclusion that I would like to share with you. HOW MUCH WORK OF THE KINGDOM HAS BEEN DONE??? I don't know about you, but I am going to get back to living my life for Jesus! Hope you do the same! Signing OFF!
Love you all, Jerald.
One last point of clarification if you will permit it...
For me the issue is NOT whether or not people/Christians should vote; the issue for me is whether I will vote or not!
Wow! Good stuff ladies and gentlemen. I am learning/thinking a lot. Obviously a very controversial topic, but good. Thank goodness Love will see us through.
Blessings, Amy
OK, since I am the one who says, "I don't care where we go" but then offer complaints when the decision is made.....should I take offense to this?
On the voting issue, I have an interesting perspective to apply to this conversation. I have a student in my class who is a senior, 19 years old and Mentally Retarted. When the election wave began to hit last year, she would say "I can't wait to vote". When she said this, the thought came across my mind as to how she would decide who/what she was voting for. I finally realized that she was going to vote for whomever her parents were going to vote for. It wasn't her vote....it was an extra one for her parents. This isn't a student who has the ability to understand in detail enough what she would be voting for. Just a little perpective, when we were having a class discussion last year about the president she said that his name was George Washington!
I was frustrated almost angry for so many things in this scenario, but mostly for the fact that I was paying attention, asking questions, listening, doing research, etc. to figure out who and what I wanted to vote for. We've been given this ability to make important decisions that will effect our daily lives. Now, we have people with struggles putting in a vote for something that they don't have the ability to understand in the least amount.
So here we are voting....today. And she went and voted for her families pick. I hope that maybe she was able to create an opinion of her own and have an understanding at least a little bit as to what she voted for. As a Christian, I was ashamed that I had ill feelings for this situation. But, as an American who has taken this election seriously, is this fair?
Here is what I do when I get the "I don't care" reply when trying to decide where to eat: I purposely choose places that I know will be offensive to the person to test their level of care. Once I prove that they really do care, then many times they are prompted to offer suggestions. This practice is particularly effective with my wife whom I know enjoys the exchange.
In addition, Obama is not the only big winner tonight. Based on the response Rev Phil has envoked this night with this post, illuminating a core issue that pulls at the heartstrings of all americans, he has shown a blogging prowess to be envied by all those whose fingers tickle the keyboard in their efforts to stimulate the thoughts of others. Bravo kind sir.
Wow - lots of thoughts hanging out there - awesome! I'm glad that each of you (for the benefit of the group) decided to participate in this process and add your two cents - way to go!
Please don't mistake this post as my way of becoming overly political - in my opinion, I am one of the least "politically-minded" people I know. I generally investigate just enough to participate responsibly and let the rest go away.
I have to admit, though, that I am bothered by the idea of giving up my vote (and that by doing so, somehow I've evolved to a more virtuous and even Christ-like attitude).
For the sake of some clarity that I may have missed earlier, here's my problem:
As followers of Christ, we are called to be influencers of society and examples of Jesus' perspectives and attitudes in the things we do, say and think. Through that process, we impact and bless and benefit society and the Kingdom of God.
This can be manifested in many ways: we can give hot dogs to hungry toobers, collect canned goods for the less-fortunate, keep a stash of $20 bills in our car to help out panhandlers, etc. These are meaningful and beneficial, and we should pursue more activities like this, and examine ourselves so that more and more, this kind of benefit happens as a result of our lives. We can all agree on this point (I think).
Here's where I get lost, and I haven't heard an answer to this question that makes sense yet. How does forfeiting my right to cast my vote and participate in the process of deciding leaders and policies create that sort of benefit?
I understand that informed voting by God's standards is but a small part of a lifestyle of benefit to the community, and should be accompanied by other various beneficial kinds of actions, but I contend that it should be a PART.
I apologize to all, and to the dead horse for continuing to beat it after it was clearly out of breath.
P.S. Thanks to Coul Mo B for the kind words and for the chuckle - I can just see you suggesting offensive restaurants to jolt Mrs. Mo B out of her complacency - hilarious!
perhaps part of the answer you're looking for is that so much of the 'benefit' does not come through government. you can legislate love.
and here's actually the best part of your and tim's blogs yesterday. you got folks to think theologically about these issues. not just to think about them, but to them about them in relation to God.
that's what made this conversation important. now we've got to carry this forward into the rest of decisions.
'good day!'
To vote or not to vote. Good subject...too bad this blog was not posted a lot sooner.
It is you right and duty as an American to vote. No matter how you choose to vote you need to stand up and let your voice be heard. If you chose not to vote yesterday you voted whether you know it or not.
You need to understand if you don't speak out against something you must be for it. Matthew 12:30
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters."
If you chose not to vote against these things you voted for them and they will take place soon:
1. You just overloaded the Supreme Court with ultra liberal judges who will promote change. Say good bye to the Constitution.
2. You just voted for same-sex marriage.
3. You just voted to teach homosexuality to your elementary school children teaching them that this is an accepted lifestyle.
4. You just voted to stop conservative talk radio. Maybe you think that is fine you don't agree with them anyway. Well, you also just voted to stop Christian Radio as well. I guess you are not interested in fredom of speech.
5. You just voted that you agree with abortion and encourage it to happen more. Even to those born alive.
6. You just voted that the freedom of owning a gun is not important.
7. You just voted that you don't care if home schooling disappears.
8. You just surrendered in Iraq and Afganistan to terrorists. Watch for many deaths in those countries and attacks in this country with no reprisal.
9. You just voted to reduce the size of our military...our protection from terrorists.
10. You just vote for National Healthcare. You voted to long waiting lines to get to see a doctor, limited care for older Americans, and perhaps even euthanasia.
11. You just voted to higher taxes.
12. You just voted for loss of jobs.
13. You just voted to move more businesses out of this country.
14. You just made oil a much more expensive commodity.
15. You just drove energy prices through the roof.
16. You just voted to drive the coal industry out of America.
17. You perhaps have voted to shut down Christian books. Can the Bible be far behind?
18. You just voted to make criminals out of President Bush and anyone in the cabinet who agreed with him.
So, yes it is your right to not vote and to just ignore what is going on around you. The hard part is that you "reap what you sow". So, if you didn't vote you will still suffer the consequences.
If you don't speak up when asked where you want to eat the only person that suffers is you. When you don't speak up for what is right for everyone in this country...everyone suffers.
It is a sad day.
I didn't vote on Tuesday. Not that I didn't want to. I just got tied up at work and didn't make it a priority to get it done. It was my last day at my previous job and I had a lot of loose ends to tie up. Not really making excuses, but it is just the fact.
However, I take offense to the list of issues that I supposedly voted in favor of.
1. Ultra liberal judges being added to the Supreme Court will balance out the uber-conservative judges who have been appointed in the last few years. Checks and Balances...
4. How is a political party going to get rid of a certain type of radio? I don't understand that point.
6. I am not sure that the new president will make all guns illegal, just assault rifles. We aren't taking away all the big guns, just the one's that shoot 50 rounds per second.
10. I will reserve my right to comment on this comment until it actually becomes a reality. The entire healthcare system will have to undergo a major overhaul before this is remotely possible. I am pretty sure that you will still be able to buy supplemental coverage in addition to any national healthcare. I think it is really too early to make judgments on this yet.
11. I don't make over $250,000 so why do I care about their taxes going up?
14. The cost of oil depends on supply and demand. I say we should be trying to find alternatives to oil. We consume too much oil to make any significant impact with offshore drilling or drilling in any other areas. Let's try to decrease our consumption and solve the problems in other ways.
17. Not sure about this one. Is the government going to take over publishing companies now?
18. If the shoe fits...If Joe the Plumber tells the Police that his neighbor is developing a mega-weapon in his basement and the Police raid the house, and use unecessary force to find the mega-weapon that may or may not have even existed. Has Joe the Plumber commited a crime? He has in my book. Prosecute away. Granted, I don't think that he is the only guilty party. I think that a lot of people got caught up in the excitement and approved a war that should probably not have started in the first place.
I didn't vote for President but that doesn't mean I voted for any of these items...
This last exchange is a very interesting topic. Does not voting indirectly cast a vote for what ever the eventual winner believes in? Or are you just letting other people decide who gets to dictate policy?
I believe that voting is an american right and that too many people have died to ensure we have the right to chose who runs our government. Therefore voting is a priority for me. As such, I made arrangements in my busy schedule to make sure I could cast a vote. This year, as with most, that meant leaving earlier one morning during early voting. On election day, I took both kids to their schools, so my chronically late wife could leave earlier than usual to vote. Many non-local students at TLU made special arrangements to go home during early voting or arrange for an absentee ballot. This was encouraging to see. So if you voted, your participation in the process was a priority. If you did not vote, this was not a priority for you...there are too many ways to vote if you really want to. Too those who routinely do not vote, that's ok...just sit back and enjoy the ride and pray. Maybe if the ride gets too bumpy, priorities will change.
Side note: my earlier post was an attempt to use a bit of humor to diffuse some of the political posts and wrap up the discussion. Some things just can't be stopped. So now y'all have my two cents.
18 posts? RevPhill is the man!!!
I have no argument with your post Brian. I definitely didn't make it a big enough priority. I had planned on voting that night after work, but you are truly correct. If it had been a priority I would have gone early or left work, or used some other method to vote. For that, i have no excuse.
I also agree with the success of this post. RevPhil doesn't post often, but he makes it count when he does bring it. Kinda like his batting average in softball. HA HA
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